There has been a noticeable decline in students’ engagement in school. Ever since the pandemic, more and more students have become withdrawn and are struggling to learn. How can we address this? Join Kohila Sivas as she welcomes Cathy Rodriguez, a seasoned education professional with over two decades of experience. Cathy shares her journey from teaching in New York City to her current role as an assistant principal in California, highlighting the transition from teaching to administration driven by a passion for supporting teachers in serving students better. They discuss the importance of administrators creating conducive environments for learning and strategies for providing constructive feedback to teachers. Cathy also provides insights into post-COVID student behavior shifts and emphasizes the need for schools to prioritize social-emotional learning. Additionally, their discussion touches on challenges such as managing large class sizes, promoting student well-being, and navigating the impact of technology on education. Tune in for a compelling conversation on the evolving landscape of education and the call for systemic change to support student success.

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Why Students Struggle Today: Post-COVID Student Behavior Shifts With Cathy Rodriguez

Why Kids Don't Like School Anymore

I am thrilled to introduce our special guest, Cathy Rodriguez, a true veteran in the world of education. With more than two decades of shaping minds, Cathy’s journey began in the heart of New York City until she moved to California where she has been inspiring students in grades 6 through 8 in both English and Spanish language arts. Cathy has been in roles like department chair, activities coordinator, and even co-founding a task force dedicated to English language learners. She is an assistant principal of a dual-immersion elementary school. Let’s dive into a conversation with the woman who’s truly at the heart of education.

Welcome, Cathy. Thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for having me.

You are a teacher. How long have you been teaching?

From Teacher To Administrator

I was in the classroom for 23 years, and then I moved into the administrative side. I am an assistant principal. This is my second year as an assistant principal. I recognized that I no longer wanted to be in the classroom. After COVID, I saw a lot of changes in the students and the school system, and I felt that I could best serve as an administrator. I sincerely believe that teachers have the most important and the hardest job at any school site. I felt that I could do my best to support teachers in what they were doing to serve our students and educate our students.

I really appreciate what you said. It resonates with me that they have the hardest job. You want to be helpful to them because many times, what I hear is that these teachers are not getting help from the administrators.

I felt that way myself many times, and I, many times, wanted the administrator sometimes to listen or take a little something off my plate. When I was teaching in the classroom, I had anywhere from 150 to 180 students. I taught in middle school. I sometimes needed a student removed from my classroom for five minutes at least to be able to refocus myself a little bit and give that student a break as well.

I feel that as an administrator, if a teacher tells me, “I need a break,” I will do whatever they need, whether it’s they need to run to the restroom because our bodies don’t always stick to the schedules that we have to follow for school. Especially in elementary school, those teachers are with the students all day. If they need a 5 or 10-minute break from a student to allow that student a moment to reset themselves and refocus, and even the class as a whole to give them a break from whatever’s going on with that student, it is better all around.

I feel like that’s my job, whether it’s sometimes to take that angry phone call from that parent who’s upset at what the teacher said. Many times, the parent wants to be heard the same way the teacher wants to be heard. It is on the admin’s radar for, “What are we going to do about this student?” It’s validating their feelings as well and saying, “I see this same thing in the student. Let’s try this. Let’s work together.”

I feel that my job as an admin is to really support the teachers. I don’t believe that I know it all, but I’m willing to work with teachers. They certainly know their students better than I do. They’re with them all day. If the teacher tells me, “This is what I’m seeing,” I need to see how I can support that teacher to help that student or how I can support that student or perhaps that family so that way, the student gets those services and help they need.

You are a better administrator than many because I hear a lot of stories about how administrators are not helping the teachers sometimes and throwing the teachers under the bus. You have a compassionate side because you were a teacher before.

I will always consider myself a teacher first. Having been in the classroom for 23 years, I will not ever be an administrator for that long because I hope to retire before that. I’m always a teacher first. I think, “What would I want in this situation?” Sometimes, if it’s a teacher who doesn’t know certain techniques or strategies, then I see it as like, “Let me help them.”

You don’t know what you don’t know sometimes. It could be a simple little fix and it makes a difference. When I go into classrooms, I let teachers know that I’m not observing them. I’m sincerely not observing them. I’m observing a student. I’m observing what’s going on with the kids. The part that I am observing is what is the community that the teacher has built in that classroom because whether we are intentional about it or not, teachers do create a community and a culture in their own classroom. I’m observing that piece of it, not necessarily that one student or the teacher.

Whether we are intentional about it or not, teachers create a community and a culture in their own classrooms.

The lesson can change. Teachers have those days and those lessons that they’re on it and they’re doing an amazing job, and then they have those days that it’s not their best day. They’re off. Maybe they’re sick. Maybe there is something going on at home. Maybe something is going on with the students and it’s a little bit off. Maybe it’s the day before winter break or anything like that and the kids are a little squirrely. I am there to gauge the vibe in the classroom. Is it a conducive environment for learning even if it’s not the teacher’s best day?

How do you help a teacher who might be offended? Observation is a huge part of a teacher’s day-to-day operation. A lot of the time, if you give feedback, how do you give it as constructive? It’s not a negative. They don’t take it because if they’re already feeling like they’re not doing a job and they’re already feeling not good and you give them a result, they’re maybe not happy with you. As an administrator, what happens?

I always try to approach it thinking of how I would feel. When I have had observations that I didn’t get great feedback on because of whatever was going on that day. I always approach it from there’s more good that goes on than not. I always focus on, “This is what I saw that was wonderful. I saw that this student was on task. I saw that you put time and effort into preparing this lesson. You were knowledgeable about this.”

If there was any formula to it, I’m always 75% positives and strengths and 25% areas of growth. I do believe that we could always grow. There’s always room for improvement. The best of the best teachers, there’s always a little tweak that they can make. I always go with that like, “What are the little things?” I don’t ever want to overwhelm a teacher with, “Here’s a laundry list of things that you need to work on.”

If there is a real concern that I have, I would probably pick out the top 2 or 3 things. That would also include providing support at the school sites that I have been at. We’ve had instructional coaches before. Part of it is putting them in touch with the instructional coach and me reaching out to that instructional coach. I know that that lessens the teacher’s stress for some of it. They’re not being observed by an admin. They’re working with another teacher who is going to support them.

I’ll let that teacher know if I have concerns like, “I will be walking through and I will be checking. I want to see that you’re making those changes and you’re implementing that.” It’s not like, “I caught you.” I want that more informal walkthrough. I know it’s a little unfair to walk through for 2 or 3 minutes. I would never base somebody’s observation on 2 or 3 minutes, but I do believe that 2 or 3 minutes here and 2 or 3 minutes there at different times of the day also provide a bit of a snapshot.

That so far has worked. There are times I walk in and students are working independently. Other times, the teacher is in full teaching mode. Other times, the students work in partners. They’re transitioning from one subject to another. I want to be able to get a feel for that, going back to the community and the culture that the teacher has created in that classroom.

If a teacher is reading, what would be the best advice you can give them to address admins who are not this sensitive? Some admins are different than others. A lot of the time, sometimes as humans, we also play on our egos. Our egos become bigger than our mission. We can get trapped in that. Teachers need the support because of, and we’re going to talk about that in a bit, how hard it is in the classroom. What advice can you give them to manage?

I always go with the approach of you can’t take things personally. Whether as an admin or as a teacher, that parent that’s screaming at you, you don’t know what else is going on in that parent’s life. Part of it is you can’t take it personally, but I also believe that most teachers are doing the best they can. It’s important to be reflective, though, and realize one’s own strengths and one’s own areas of growth, and then actively try to do something about growing in that area.

I know that as a beginning teacher, my area of weakness was classroom management. It was a challenge for me to manage my 13 and 14-year-old students. It took a good 4 or 5 years to even get to a point that I felt was somewhat manageable like, “I’m feeling like I’m making a difference.” That happened because I did have a supportive admin who would let me out of my class and would cover my class for 15 or 20 minutes so I could observe another teacher who had really solid classroom management. I did read books. I did watch videos. It was me reflecting on what I needed but also me asking for that help.

I know we have the other extreme, the admin that thinks they’re God. It’s that ego. That’s a different challenge, but you can’t ever take it personally. I know that admin, we have our own challenges. We have our own bosses above us who are even more removed from the classroom. I don’t see any harm in a teacher ever asking for help, whether it’s from another teacher or they feel comfortable seeking help from admin. If there’s an instructional coach available, whether it’s at the school side or the district level, it is asking for that type of help as well.

Being reflective goes a long way, like, “This is what I’m good at,” and developing that, but also, “What do I need to grow in to be better still? What steps can I take to improve in that?” It always comes down to the relationship with admin. They don’t need to be your best friend, but having a professional and respectful relationship goes a long way.

Post-COVID Shift In Student Behaviors

You said earlier when we started that there has been a big shift since COVID. Students’ behaviors are different. What are the shifts in your opinion? What is happening?

When COVID started, I was still in the classroom. We started that year traditionally. With my eighth graders at the time, August until March 13th, 2020 when we were sent home, it had been a regular school year. My students in eighth grade were excited about the end of the year coming up. They were going to have their dance, their eighth-grade celebration, and trip. They were very excited about that. All of a sudden, on March 13th, 2020, it was, “Take everything home. It was students. It was teachers also, like, “Take everything home. Take your books and teacher’s editions. We don’t know when we’re coming back.” That was frightening in many ways.

At the time, I taught at a Title 1 school. I saw students that were normally very engaged to I didn’t hear from them again. I saw students who were lively that wouldn’t check in to class at all and maybe submitted a couple of assignments, but these are students who had been engaged in the classroom. Some of those students, when I had them in 7th grade, I also had them again in 8th grade. I saw that change continue into eighth grade.

13 and 14-year-olds are very vulnerable in many ways even though they try to behave like they’re not. They are vulnerable. When I saw them come back the following year, it was a hybrid model. We started out the year entirely online, and then throughout the course of the school year, eventually, we were all back together wearing masks. I saw students that their behaviors became very withdrawn. They were not as willing to engage and talk. Those little activities like Think-Pair-Share, all of a sudden, the kids would sit there and stare at each other when normally, they couldn’t wait to start talking to each other.

The following year when we came back, we were still with masks, but everybody was back. We really saw a rise in behaviors at that point. It went from the extreme of being withdrawn to having students at school who were using drugs at school. I’m still talking about middle school, so 6th, 7th, and 8th graders drinking at school. It went from, “I’m being completely withdrawn,” to, “I’m going to the other extreme. I’m drinking. I’m doing drugs.” I, in my twenty years at that point in teaching, had not seen that many students behave in that way.

Having moved into the admin side of it, there are behaviors in 4th, 5th, and 6th graders that we didn’t see before. Meaning, there are students that are still struggling to learn how to read in 5th and 6th grade. It is because of COVID that they didn’t get those lessons on phonemic awareness, phonics, and the science of reading or fluency. They didn’t get that foundation. We’re seeing that struggle.

As far as behaviors, we’re seeing lots of conduct disorders because they’re too little to be diagnosed with anything else. A lot of children do not know how to interact with each other in appropriate ways. I see a lot more aggression in the little ones than previously. I see a lot more of what I’m hesitant to call bullying, but it is a level of meanness.

The kindness is not there. The kindness has diminished.

The kindness isn’t there where before, you can tell a student, “That wasn’t very nice,” and they would be like, “Too bad.”

It’s attitude. What do you as a professional think is contributing to it? The masking and the COVID isolation, there are those, but what else happened do you think significantly? What are they doing in order to be angry? I know the kids are angry because I hear from teachers who are in kindergarten or grade one. Especially grade one students are very angry.

Some of it is that so much of our instruction has gone online. Instead of coming off of the computers, the iPads, and the Chromebooks, so much of the instruction requires the students to be on the computer. I certainly am not a neurologist. I don’t know anything about that, but I know that students spending that much time on technology every day can’t be good for their little brains. There’s no way that a teacher can compete with that.

Students spending so much time on technology every day can't be good for their little brains.

They’re filling out a game or they’re doing a game on the computer and it automatically gives them feedback like, “It was the right answer. It was the wrong answer.” It’s disguised as a game, but they’re practicing math or reading. All of a sudden, to take them off of that and then be like, “Let’s do this pen and paper. Now, you have to sit and listen,” they haven’t developed that type of endurance to be able to focus long enough.

It’s not fast enough.

It still requires time for them to write something out instead of hitting a button. Those motor skills aren’t there and it’s frustrating to them. Especially the little ones, they don’t have the words yet to be able to say, “This is frustrating to me,” or, “I don’t like this.” They’re acting out in that way. It’s that anger because they’re not getting that immediate feedback.

That’s how they’re communicating. It’s through anger behaviors. The teachers and the districts, are they seeing this?

They are seeing it. We are ridiculously understaffed. I’m hesitant to use special ed because not everybody is in special ed, but the approach to behaviors needs to change.

This is not special ed. It’s a societal problem.

I agree, but I also think that we’re quick to label students as special ed. That’s why I’m saying that. We are understaffed in that sense. Schools need more counselors. There needs to be a very intentional focus on social-emotional well-being and even being able to say, “We’re all using the same approach.” It’s going to work for most kids to have that expectation of, “We’re going to be kind,” and, “This is not acceptable.” It’s not going to reach other kids. Those are the kids that we really need to focus on because those are the kids that will take up most of the class time acting out in some way. There needs to be a real focus on that social-emotional piece because learning can’t happen if you don’t have a relationship with that student on some level.

Social-Emotional Training

If they don’t know how to regulate themselves, then they’re not in the state to learn. Could teachers get training?

They should receive training and training on that general social-emotional piece. In an ideal situation, you would have counselors also working with teachers and maybe coming into classrooms and doing lessons with the class. It’s not entirely on the teacher’s shoulders. Maybe the teacher does a foundational type of lesson and then the counselor comes in and builds on that.

Ideally, that would address a good chunk of the students, whether it’s like, “Let’s use some deep breathing techniques when somebody upsets us,” or, “Maybe let’s learn to walk away or put ourselves in time out.” It’s not because somebody puts you there but because I chose I need a few minutes aside. That would be helpful. It’s then having those counselors on campus who can address and intervene with those students who have those heightened behavior problems.

In one of the schools I was at, there were some teachers that had calming corners. I will admit that I was skeptical about it at first because I was like, “Kids are going to take advantage of this.” The teachers I saw using it were very intentional. They had a little timer there and the student could set the timer. It was five minutes max and they had to go back to their seats then. If after those five minutes, they were not well enough, that particular teacher had trained the students to say, “I need to talk to you outside.” That worked very well. That was in a third-grade classroom. I’m not saying it was perfect, but it did address most of the student’s needs at that point.

Teachers need training support. Having 26 kids in grade 1, or 30, 20, or 25, and all have these social-emotional issues.

There are more than 25 or 26.

What’s your class size?

The school I’m at has 28 kindergartners in the class. The other school I was at before had 31 or 32 kindergartners in a classroom.

One teacher?

One teacher.

That scares me because they’re six years old. What if I lose some of them? I can’t see all of them at one point. Even with an outside peripheral view, I can’t see them all.

There’s no way. I know, and I agree. They’re scary to have that many little ones in there. It’s really important in that situation then to teach them how to regulate themselves and teach them those skills. That third-grade teacher that I was talking about had 29 students in her class. There are 29 little bodies that are 7 or 8 years old and many of them can’t verbalize, “I’m upset.” They have the words, but it is recognizing those feelings in themselves, like, “I’m frustrated because math is hard,” or, “Reading is hard.”

They can’t label it. They can put two in those feelings with what’s happening in their body together. There’s the comprehension, but that’s not there.

Sometimes, it is going back to friendships. They got angry with their friend or their friend got angry at them and they’re bringing that back to class with them. This might have happened at recess and they’re bringing that back to the classroom with them. They’re expected to do the math, whether it’s a math game on the computer or doing a lesson together as a whole class, but they’re still thinking about what happened at recess. Even in some situations, they are thinking about what happened in the morning with mom or dad if it’s a much bigger situation. It is helping them be able to focus on learning when their mind isn’t there.

What Can Parents Do

If parents are reading, what are some of the things parents can do? I have a book out called Cracking the Parenting Codes. I launched not long ago. I’m launching this because parents need help. They need lots of help because parenting has changed over the years. What parents are going through is different than what our parents went through to raise us. It’s different. The whole world is different for them. How can they help? If a parent is reading and they have a grade one student at their house, what advice do you have for them?

The biggest thing for any student is to have that stability and routine. Kids don’t always like it, but they do want stability and a routine. They want to know, “I’m going to come home and this is what’s going to happen,” whatever that may be. Maybe after school, they go to an after-school childcare program and somebody’s picking them up, whether it is mom, dad, a grandparent, or whoever it may be. They’re going to go home and they have a routine, whether it’s, “You’re going to have a snack and then work on your homework for a little bit,” and then whatever your nightly routine is. That is huge for a child to have stability and a routine.

The biggest thing for any student is to have that stability and routine.

Parents don’t need to have a Master’s degree in math or anything like that, but checking on their students and taking an interest like, “What’d you learn today? How was school?” I know that as they get older, they’re less likely to share. They’ll be like, “Fine. Good.” It’s the students knowing that their parents are asking and taking a real genuine interest in what they’re learning and what they’re doing. Sometimes, you have to really draw it out of them. Maybe it means peeking over their shoulder, seeing what homework they’re working on, and asking them about it.

Anytime you can engage your child, it’s good. We should engage them not just in negative ways, but in positive ways. If it means that you have to do a quick Google search to find out about the moons of some planet because that’s what they’re learning about, then so be it. Stability, having routines, and being engaged in what they’re interested in and what they’re learning at school are important.

Earlier, we talked about how students are acting detached and isolated, this new behavior because of COVID. The masking could have done it too because they haven’t seen people smile. Smile is an international language for pleasant behavior. When you’re smiling, you know, but when you go under a mask, you can be doing whatever motion. I can’t tell. As I look at your eyes a little bit, I can tell. We have trained these little people in this way with the mask. Do you think that’s affecting them at home too or is it just at home?

Certainly at home as well. From my personal experience, when we were at home during COVID, my stepdaughter was up in her room. She was in high school at the time. She was up in her room doing her work for hours and I was downstairs in the living room or the kitchen area teaching and working also. We didn’t really see each other either. We were in the same house, but we didn’t see each other. It probably was like a good month or two before it was like, “What are we doing?”

We used to regularly come home and eat together. Maybe that wasn’t every night depending on her schedule or my schedule. My wife’s schedule didn’t always allow it, but it was something that happened a few times a week. It wasn’t a long leisurely dinner, but we had that interaction of maybe cooking together or preparing a part of our meal together. With COVID, it became very insular. Everybody went to their corner. We became passing ships. That was very common in a lot of homes. When I’ve spoken with my friends, it was like, “All of a sudden, I was like, “Here’s your food. Everybody serve yourselves and go to your room and eat.”

I heard from some people too that kids went and ate at the time they were not supposed to. It’s all accessible. You’re at home. At school, you don’t have your pantry. You have to wait until you go home to access all this food. They were available, and then they already ate. When it comes to dinner time or lunchtime, you’re not going to be hungry because you probably ate something already. That all started skipping. The family time started not happening.

There is one thing we did at our house. We had kids too at that time. They’re older now. My son is seventeen. We never let them stay in their room to do their work. We had them out. If you don’t have a bigger space, then they will be beside each other. We keep the computers and stuff outside of their room. I’ve always said it. I’ve done a couple of summits during the COVID time. I’d say for me, it doesn’t sit well when they have the computer or phone in their home because it’s almost like letting a stranger in their room. It’s what it feels like for me. Somebody’s in there that I don’t know who can do what to them.

Impact Of Technology

I have said something similar to parents when they’re handing their 7 or 8-year-old a phone. You’ve given millions of strangers access to your child because you’ve let the stranger into your child’s room. I agree with you under normal circumstances. Our daughter prior to that would’ve been working in the living room, but because she had a class going on and I was meant to be teaching a class, it was our only solution. She stays upstairs in her room and I’m working downstairs.

We took our own isolations, for sure.

We had to make it work. That happened with a lot of families.

Can you imagine if you were living closer? If you were in 1-bedroom or 2-bedroom apartments, then you’re close to each other too.

I was teaching at that time. Many of our students, I couldn’t tell if they were really there because their screens were blank. As much as I insisted, “I want to be able to see you for a few minutes of class at least each time,” the peaks that I got into their family life were very interesting. Sometimes, there was all this stuff going on behind them, which was super distracting. It was loud. Even if they might have had AirPods, earbuds, or whatever on, I would’ve been terribly distracted. I was distracted by seeing what was going on behind them. A leftover piece of COVID is that constant interaction. You’re also alone. You’re interacting with people in a way, but you’re still isolated.

Even at home, my son brings his friends and then they’ll sit on their phones. I say to them, “I thought you guys came for a visit. If you were going to be on your phone, you should have been at your own house and been on the phone. Why are you here present? Who are you talking to on the phone? You’re right here. All of you are right here.”

We see that when we go out to dinner or to places. You see a table full of people. They’re sitting at the same table but everybody’s on their phones.

These guys come together to play or something. They’re gathering at home. If they’re younger, we call them play dates, sleepovers, or whatever. I see them with their phones and I’m like, “They didn’t have to be here.” That’s how the gathering became. It was a phone gathering, not a, “We’re coming together,” gathering anymore. That has also changed. I’m not sure if the younger kids are doing that, but my son is seventeen. When his friends come, I get in there and tell them, “Put them away.” I joke with them like, “You should have been at your own home.”

One of the things that I was a little surprised by during COVID was probably about 11:00 one night, we can hear our daughter talking in her room.

Kids stayed up late too.

She was on FaceTime with her friends and they were doing a virtual sleepover. I have heard of other kids doing that also. Especially with our sixth graders, I’ve heard of virtual sleepovers. They have FaceTime open or whatever other option they have for video conferencing. The phone is there. In some way, this person is in your room with you. They’re connected but not connected at the same time.

Also, across the screen, even on social media and stuff, people can say rude things. We’re connected but not connected. I can say stuff because it’s through the screen.

We’ve seen a rise in cyberbullying where it’s very easy to say something mean to somebody and you don’t see that person’s reaction. You don’t see their facial expression that it hurts or that it angers them, or it’s upsetting in some ways. It’s super easy to say something mean.

It’s that energy. We’re all energy beings. If I say a mean thing and they react, I can feel I’ve destroyed their energy. I’ve upset their energy. This is a phone. We don’t have anything traveling through. We can say whatever. It’s easy.

Exactly. You don’t get that feedback. You don’t see that you destroyed that person’s energy. The translation of that into school then is that somebody comes in wearing a shirt that they were so happy about and somebody will be like, “That’s stupid.” All of a sudden, they see that they have hurt that person. I’ve seen kids later on start crying, the kid who made the comment, “That shirt is stupid,” because they weren’t expecting that other person to be hurt by it. When I sat and talked with them, they were like, “I didn’t think they were going to be hurt by that. I didn’t think they were going to react that way.” It comes from not being used to that face-to-face interaction.

They’re also watching stuff in the online space or on social media. There are lots of social media sites. I’m hearing lots of teachers getting in trouble with kids. They’re saying, “My teacher did this,” and they’re taking them to the next level. They’re going and getting their friends to say, “This is what the teacher did.” Sometimes, some teachers have cameras. It’s not even what they said, but they make a story to elevate.

It happens in some of these spaces. TikTok is one of them. I’m not there, so I don’t know exactly the whole scenario. They said that they’re putting out videos to kids saying, “Go do this at school today and see what happens.” There are these pranks, and then it becomes a game. That game becomes a serious issue. I talked to two teachers. They’re leaving the profession because they’ve been told, “What you did is wrong,” even though they did not do anything wrong. This is all happening at the same time too, right

Right after COVID, there were TikTok challenges. Some of it was like, “Destroy a bathroom,” and public vandalism. We did have students trying to do that, whether it was flooding the bathroom because they kept flushing the toilet or stuffing things into the toilet or into a sink to clog it and overflow it. We did see that. It’s costly for schools to keep repairing those things.

Most public schools do have policies on cell phones and not recording during the school day. We have had students record teachers without their knowledge or without their consent and post it on Instagram, Snapchat, or TikTok. You can take anything out of context. You can edit something and the most harmless thing, all of a sudden, gets twisted into something else. All it takes is 1 person or 1 student posting this and everybody else jumping in and saying something else. It could have been nothing. It could have been a teacher telling a student, “Go sit down and start your work,” but you create this whole backstory to it. You’re like, “This is the mean teacher.” You can edit the video and stuff.

There are so many edits you can do. There is so much you can do. It’s not fair for the teacher. I always never understood why a student needs a phone while they’re in the classroom.

I completely agree. We have seen many parents going to the school board and insisting that their child be allowed to have an Apple watch or some kind of smartwatch on them. I am the same. I agree unless there’s a medical reason for you to have a smartwatch on you. I do know that diabetics and some other students might need a smartwatch for medical reasons. That’s completely fine. I also know that if there is a real concern, the smartwatch isn’t going to protect your child.

They’re in a safe place with the teacher. I know sometimes, safety has been in question in some schools because of some incidents like violence and stuff, but this is the safest place for your child. The phone is distracting them. Even if you put it away, and you and I know this, they’ll take it out and it becomes a game. They’re like, “My teacher is not looking. I’m going to be on my phone and put it away when she comes. Now, we’re playing the police game. Catch me if you can.” That’s not learning.

Why do they need a phone? Even if they bring it, why can’t we have a locker? Even for the younger kids, some of them are ten and they have a phone. They are nine and they have a phone. They need to learn, “When I come into this class, my duty and my job is this. My phone goes here.” Everybody has maybe a locked place where they put it away. They’re then like, “Now, we’re learning. When I finish, I can have my phone.”

I absolutely agree. That would be wonderful.

It’s a structure.

I agree with that 100%. I do know that in the older grades, sometimes teachers do allow students to use their phones.

They do quizzes and stuff. I was in classes like that. It’s that age too. They love to play, “Catch me if you can.”

Part of it is that if you have a Chromebook, and for most kids, the schools provide Chromebooks, iPads, or some other kind of technology, you don’t need that phone. Whether it’s a game to log into something, it’s very easy to do that same thing with a Chromebook or an iPad. It’s not necessary to have that phone there and you’re playing, “Catch me.”

It always was like that. For me, it was like that. I walk around, and the minute I come, it goes away. You can see the body putting it away. The minute I leave that area, it comes back out. You’re like, “Put it away.” You’re saying, “Put it away,” because they’re not doing the work they’re supposed to. They’re going to take homework home. They’re not going to get the homework done. They’re falling behind in the classroom as we speak. Earlier, you were saying kids need guidance. Kids need structure.

They need structuring guidance.

They crave structure. They look for structure.

They think they don’t want it, but they do.

Internally, their body and everything. Us too. If we have a structure, we’re better off than doing whatever. A lot of the time, we don’t get to do what we intended to do when we do it, but if we put a structure together, then we can keep ourselves accountable to that structure. That’s a good lesson to teach as we grow and become adults.

There’s something to be said for being able to provide structure to students but also show them that there’s a certain amount of flexibility to it. You’re like, “The phones, put them away. This is our time to work on reading. Maybe the reading that you’re doing is going to look different than the reading I’m doing, but we’re both working on that.” Providing structure for students with that flexibility and differentiation gives each student what they need to grow and to be successful. I am a big believer that success looks different for each student.

That’s the whole methodology I have developed after leaving. I have a coaching methodology. Success is different for every single student. The rate of success that comes is different. You don’t measure one against the other. It’s not about measurement. That’s why this testing is so cruel in many instances because we’re testing at a level that the child’s not ready for.

Student Testing

You brought up testing. We have so much outside-of-state testing, like district testing or school site testing. A lot of times, you see that student who is still technically failing but they grew. Let’s say a sixth-grade student grew from a 2nd-grade reading level or math level and they’re at 4th grade. That is tremendous growth, but they’re still technically failing.

We don’t celebrate that. That’s a failure for that student. When you don’t celebrate, they’re noticing, “I’ve done all this work, but I’m still a failure. What is the point of doing work?”

That’s where we lose a lot of our students. It’s, “Why should I bother to keep trying? I’m failing anyway. It doesn’t matter. I tried and this is the best I could do.” We know that we have students who walk into our classroom and are so behind already. You know right away as a teacher. You’re like, “I don’t know if I’m going to be able to get this kid up to a grade level, but if I can make this kid grow 1 or 2-grade levels, that’s a success.”

That’s a big success. It’s huge.

It’s helping the students see that. Maybe you’re not at the grade level. You are not reading and not performing at the grade level that you’re at, but you’re way closer. It’s helping students realize that they still need to keep putting in their all. I’m a long-distance runner. I run marathons. I will never win marathons. I’m not at that level of competitiveness, but I put my best effort into every race I do. In some races, I’m doing great, and in other ones, not so great, but I’m still going out to do my best.

I try to have students learn, “You can only do your best. Only you know if you’re doing your best.” There are a lot of times that I’ve had students and I show them, “You should be proud of this. This is huge growth. What did you do? Can we do this again?” I want students to feel empowered to say, “I took my time this time,” or, “I reviewed my answers,” or, “I reviewed my notes,” or whatever it was.

I want them to be able to say, “I did this and this worked. Let’s try that again next time.” I don’t want students to feel that it’s this ambiguous test that is going to decide their life, that is going to determine if they’re a good person or not a good person or if they’re a bad student or a good student. I don’t believe the grade tells you if that’s a good kid or not.

The grade does not tell you if that's a good kid or not.

It measures the curriculum. It’s not measuring the student’s capacity. It’s measuring the curriculum. How much of it do you know?

How much are you able to comply with what’s being taught? That’s what a lot of our issues or some of it is. It’s that students are not complying with what the curriculum is requiring of them and what schools are requiring of them. Realistically, there is no perfect K-12 school system.

It’s time for the school system to ask the students, “What do you want to study? What intrigues you? What are you interested in?” and see what they come up with. They empower the students. For example, you have a store and you have all these merchandise. No one’s coming and buying anything and you’re going, “Why are they not buying? What’s going on? What do we do?” We ask the customers. We go to the customers and ask them, “How come you’re not buying? What kind of merchandise are you looking for? I can put it in my storefront so then I can offer you what you’re looking for.” It’s about time to ask the students, “What do you want to learn?”

I agree with that. Our school system needs to start taking that into consideration. What do the students want to learn? Maybe they want to learn about soccer.

Our school system needs to start taking more into consideration what the students want to learn.

It may be TikTok. They want to make movies. Who knows what they want to do? Ask them.

How can we incorporate that into our curriculum? Going back to the start of our conversation, I also feel that that’s a huge burden on teachers, though, to have to, every year, create these lessons. They’re like, “This batch of students really want to learn about TikTok. Now, I have to become an expert on this. This batch of students wants to learn about colonizing Mars or whatever. Now, I have to learn about that and develop lessons around that.”

It will be more student-led too. The teacher doesn’t have to do all that work. It would be student-led. They would do the research because they’re capable. Our students with their devices are capable. Sometimes I know how to research stuff on the internet. They’ll put them to work. You’re like, “That’s what they want to learn. Let’s go look for it and find out.

Impact Of Technology

You use ChatGPT. Find out what it tells you about the moon and whatever you want to learn about and bring it to me. We’ll have a discussion. We can see what we can produce from there. We can solve the world's problems there.” It becomes more student-centric and student-led. Those are important to give them some empowerment. Maybe that’s how we change this isolated situation because they’re feeling not part of the process. They’re drawing back. How do we push them back into those conversations?

With a smaller classroom, it won’t allow those students to hide. When you have 30-something students in a class, it’s very easy to hide in there. As long as you’re not causing any problems and not drawing any attention to yourself, it’s easy to go under the radar. Whereas if you have that smaller class size, as a teacher, you can make a connection with every student.

You can talk to every student every day. You can get to know what’s going on in that student’s life. You’re like, “As a class, we decided that we all want to learn about X. Let’s divide up into groups. This group is going to research this. This other group is going to tell us that.” It’s easier to build this curriculum. Every state has its standards. Make sure you’re hitting those. The rest of it builds itself.

We have standards, but kids are exiting the class school system without knowing how to read and how to do simple math. What’s the curriculum? What are the standards doing?

That’s right.

It’s not doing much. Forget even the standards. This way, the students are going to get so involved that they will start to read. In order to figure out what they want to learn, they have to read.

They have to read, whether it’s on their computer or a book. They’re going to have to read. They’re going to have to listen to it and follow along with it.

They’re going to have to be patient. It’s not going to be as fast as it was. It’s a long way away. The system can’t fix it that fast over at night. That’s where I envision giving back some control and bringing the students to lead. That way, they might get off being angry because they’re not being forced anymore. We’re not forcing them.

If we were to go that route, ideally, they feel more connected. It allows them to have more of a relationship with their peers and the adults on campus. The school site I’m at has over 1,000 students. There’s no way that I will ever know all the students on campus. As a teacher, when you have 30-something students, it’s really hard to make a connection to them. Even if you are in elementary school, it’s hard to get to each kid every day.

As you go up the grades in middle school and high school, you have them, at best, 1 hour or maybe 45 minutes. There’s no way. There’s so much to cover. Even if you’re that teacher that is greeting them at the door, it’s maybe a quick second of saying, “Good morning,” or, “Good afternoon,” and checking out and getting a feel for their energy for that day.

I used to check my students like, “Are they wearing the same clothes that they wore yesterday?” You look for those little patterns. You start knowing which students don’t have breakfast at home or which students have some difficulty perhaps. You always want to check in a little bit with them. There’s also maybe that other kid that you miss.

I always feel terrible about this one situation. It was the end of eighth grade. It was a Title 1 school. Some teachers and I every year would give out gift cards to some of our students who had lower socioeconomic means. We’d give out the gift cards so that way, they can get a nice little outfit for themselves for the awards or the dance. They could get a little something.

We all discussed, “You got this kid. I got this kid.” We made sure that the money went to the parents. It was never an issue. We saw the students wear the clothing and stuff. This one year, this one little girl wore the same outfit to the award ceremony and the dance. I’m talking about 10 to 12 teachers. We never knew.

This child was an amazing student. She was so respectful, kind, and helpful all the time. She always came to school very clean and well-dressed. We didn’t realize how her family was keeping it together. It wasn’t until then that it was a real shock. We were like, “There are the obvious ones, but who else are we missing?” Some kids are good at hiding it. Going back to the smaller class, and it’s not an excuse, when you have 35 kids in a class, something’s going to slip.

It’s management. It’s crowd control, right?

Yeah.

It’s not connection time. It’s crowd control. It’s not easy. Thank you so much. The way that you spoke really resonates with me. You never pointed a finger at anyone. You painted a beautiful picture of it’s not their fault. It’s not anybody’s fault. We all have to work together. We have to help each other, put our egos away, and look at the best for the teacher and the best for the students. I love that energy. Thank you so much. That’s what it’s all about.

Thank you. I really do believe that. If I can say one last thing?

Please.

We spoke about it a little bit at the beginning. Teachers really need to focus on what they need as well. We get beat up every day, whether it is by students, parents, or admin. It’s also considering what’s best for our own mental and emotional well-being and what our needs are. I don’t believe in working until midnight grading, curriculum writing, and all of that. You need your rest. You need to have a life outside of school because that makes you a better teacher in the long run.

Teachers really need to focus on what they need as well. We get beat up every day but we must also consider what's best for our own mental and emotional well-being.

To wrap up all of what we were talking about also, the two words that I always go back to are balance and boundaries. At home, parents have to have balance and boundaries for their kids so they understand what that structure looks like. Flexibility is important, but balance and boundaries are important. For teachers, they have to set their own balance and boundaries between work and home. If you don’t do that, you will serve from an empty cup and you will burn out. It’s not a life anyone should be living. No one’s asking you to do that anyway. The system shouldn’t be asking you to do that. You have to protect yourself. Those are my favorite words, alignment, balance, and boundaries, those three words.

I agree with you.

Thank you so much. You offered a lot of understanding for me on what’s happening since COVID because I’m not in the classroom. Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed our conversation.

Thank you.

‐‐‐

That was an amazing conversation with Cathy. I really enjoyed her energy and what she had to share about what was happening in the classroom. It was a nice addition to our show because it offered us a perspective from the administrator’s side. She was a teacher. Now, she’s an administrator. We can see how administrators are also struggling to help teachers because there’s a big shift in the way that our children are behaving. Our children’s behavior has changed since COVID.

We need to really dig deep into this conversation. I’m going to be bringing further conversations around what exactly has happened because of the masking. Kids who are supposed to be enjoying loving learning and enjoying their life, why aren’t they mad? That’s my biggest question. Why are our young kids mad? What is happening to them? We need to look into it because as parents, we have the duty to see why our children are mad and why they are frustrated.

As she was saying, in the classroom, the social-emotional part of it is not met because teachers have too many students. They don’t have the time. They have the mandate to deliver the curriculum. It’s not enough time, and it’s not enough manpower. She said there’s a shortage to deliver all of this. As parents, we have to ask questions. We have to help our kids because they rely on us to speak up. I recommend that as parents, you must see the shift in your child and see how you can help them at home.

We talked about some stuff that you can do at home, which she explained is to have a conversation. I always say to have meaningful conversations. Look at them and see what has changed for them. How are they feeling about school? How is school going for them? That is such an important question. Even if they don’t want to talk to you or even if they’re shutting you out, you must still talk to them because that shows that you care. If you don’t ask them and don’t talk to them, they think you do not care. This is what you can do at the home level and at the school level.

As parents, you have to look at whether the school is serving your child’s education. If there are lots of problems that are happening and they’re not able to focus, function, and concentrate in that environment, then we have to do something about it. That’s why the world needs to change. The school system has to change so that it becomes student-centric and student-led.

These classrooms can exist. These classrooms will help students get back into the classroom with full engagement and interest in what they want to learn because they’re not interested. That’s why they’re checking themselves out of the classroom. They’re bored. What can we do to inspire our students? That’s a question that I want to get deeper and find the answer to. I hope we can help fix the system so we can help all of our children. Thank you. I’ll see you in another episode.

Important Links

• Cathy Rodriguez

• Cracking the Parenting Codes

About Cathy Rodriguez

Lived in NYC for two years before moving to Orange County, California. She has taught 6-7-8 grade English and Spanish Language Arts in a Dual Immersion Program in public schools, including a Title I public school. Cathy served as a teacher leader and served as department chair, activities director, and co-founder of an English Language Learners Task Force at her school site. Recently, Cathy has moved into the admin side of education as the Assistant Principal of a dual immersion elementary public school before being moved to an affluent public elementary school.

Welcome to today's episode, I'm thrilled to introduce a special guest, Cathy Rodriguez, a true veteran in the world of education. With more than two decades of shaping minds, Cathy's journey began in the heart of New York City until she moved to California where she has been inspiring students in grades 6 through 8 in both English and Spanish Language Arts.

Cathy has been in roles like department chair, activities director, and even co-founding a Task Force dedicated to English Language Learners. She is now an Assistant Principal of a dual-immersion elementary school. So let’s dive into a conversation with a woman who's truly at the heart of education